What does a 2011 mustang gt and a mexican border jumper have in common?

[BISKIT]

BOTH USE COYOTES!!!!!


http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/18/return-of-the-5-0-ford-exec-confirms-400-hp-coyote-v8-coming/#comments

Ford has confirmed the new mustang will have the all aluminum 5.0 DOHC 400hp/400tq Coyote engine.

And at the bottom of the article you can see that the ecoboost engine is also a confirmed go on the mustang.

[dmark101]

:rimshot2: on the pun.


:tup: on the news of the 5.0L engine. :D

[RedRyder]

awesome! I was getting tired of being one of the few 5.0 nutswingers around here. Goodbye 281 weaksauce!

[Enorbit3]

Waiting on the 2016 fox :look:

[BISKIT]

awesome! I was getting tired of being one of the few 5.0 nutswingers around here. Goodbye 281 weaksauce!

Wanna run the weaksauce?


:asswave:

[666]

about time.. 5.0L FTW... well 5.4L actually.

[BISKIT]

about time.. 5.0L FTW... well 5.4L actually.

5.4 is going the way of the dodo along with the 4.6.

The big daddy will be the 6.2L (rumoured but unconfirmed).

Sorry chebby. The mustang takes it again.

[RedRyder]

Wanna run the weaksauce?


:asswave:

LOL, not yet. I should've said N/A 281 is weaksauce. I know it responds real well to boost.

[5litrarag]

Well now we only have a year before they start hitting the street. :look:

Maybe GM wont update the outputs on the Camaro between now and then.
And hopefully they wont release a killer Z28 offering before then either.....

[RedRyder]

but I think they will Kevin. I really do.

[M.Dest.B]

:mad: now i gotta get a newer mustnag :mad:












wonder if i can lease one :look: :flamesuit:

[RedRyder]

The 5.6752 can nevah lose!

[Nicksbluestang]

awesome! I was getting tired of being one of the few 5.0 nutswingers around here. Goodbye 281 weaksauce!

I hope you knoe that the 5.0 coyote engine is a modular and not a baby dick pushrod.

:band:

[RedRyder]

Captain Obvious to the rescue!!!

PS: Joo is gonne get raped.

[5litrarag]

I hope you knoe that the 5.0 coyote engine is a modular and not a baby dick pushrod.

:band:

And you know its a 4v right?

[Nicksbluestang]

And you know its a 4v right?

yeah i do. Im just giving ren some shit.

[5litrarag]

yeah i do. Im just giving ren some shit.

Just checking....


Oh and BTW, his new setup is gonna fuck up all you NA modulars.... You know that too, right?

[Nicksbluestang]

Just checking....


Oh and BTW, his new setup is gonna fuck up all you NA modulars.... You know that too, right?

Im sure it will tear us up a new one. :anal:
I give Ren his credits and props...

Now its time for you to get done with the oinker cause i want a ride in it!

[LXS]

Nice to hear! I've been waiting for the new powerplant! :)

[StriderTacticaL]

Is that a 4 valve?

[Enorbit3]

4V ftw.

[LXS]

You can say THAT again! :steve:








:look:

[grumps91GT]

So the 3V lasted only 5yrs??? :rofl:


Just proves that the 4V is god of gods, king of kings, and emperor of emperors. :steve:

[BISKIT]

So the 3V lasted only 5yrs??? :rofl:


Just proves that the 4V is god of gods, king of kings, and emperor of emperors. :steve:

Correction there buddy. The 3v has been around since 2004. (F150.)

and remind me again, how long did ford try and sell the na 4v only to have to discount the piss out of it to get rid of em????.......



It's all good as long as we keep it real. :wink:

[grumps91GT]

I was talking about the mustang, so okay 6yrs then???

Lets see.....4V has been around since '93. (Lincoln Mark VIII) Still around (GT500 & GT) and still kicking ass.

The 3V has great potential, but I just think its funny that Ford is getting ready to discontinue it.

[RedRyder]

hmmm... I wonder how long the 302 and 351 pushrods have been around? Hmmm...

/nutswing

[grumps91GT]

hmmm... I wonder how long the 302 and 351 pushrods have been around? Hmmm...

/nutswing

Tis be true, says I. Arrgggg.

[dmark101]

hmmm... I wonder how long the 302 and 351 pushrods have been around? Hmmm...

/nutswing
since 1962, when it replaced the y-block. :nod:

[error404]

wonder how strong the internals will be?

[1EVLPNY]

Finally! Now I'm thinking about getting a 2011 Mustang. Hopefully it has a built bottom end. :devil:

[Nicksbluestang]

Sorry chebby. The mustang takes it again.

how so?
The maro has better brakes, IRS, 10 pound weights on the calipers, looks a bazilliob times better, ets,....I guess the mustang doesnt take it.

:band:

[error404]

Sorry chebby. The mustang takes it again.

how you figure?

[grumps91GT]

We have yet to see what the "Coyote" will actually bring to the table.

But what I think Mark is saying is that Ford will out-do GM like it did in the past maybe through marketing/advertising or financial #'s. :whoknows:

[error404]

We have yet to see what the "Coyote" will actually bring to the table.

But what I think Mark is saying is that Ford will out-do GM like it did in the past maybe through marketing/advertising or financial #'s. :whoknows:

eh, marketing and financial numbers, and sales numbers don't mean squat to me. All that shows is how good/bad their advertising agencies and corporate people are. Has nothing to do with the car as far as I'm concerned :) A good sales/advertising agency could sell you anything. Look at the clothing people buy nowdays, people PAY to have their new clothing in a style that looks old and torn up. LOL :D That's silly to me!

[BondoSHO]

LSx w/HCI>Boosted Ford. :dramastarted:


:tongue:

On that note, I think the ecoboost motor will have more modding potential. A simple tune on the factory setup should yield ~400hp, but then start upgrading the piping, intakes, bigger turbos, and it's almost endless. Hopefully the bottom end can take it. I know on the new SHO motor the crank is forged, but nothing has been said about the pistons.

[5litrarag]

eh, marketing and financial numbers, and sales numbers don't mean squat to me. All that shows is how good/bad their advertising agencies and corporate people are. Has nothing to do with the car as far as I'm concerned :) A good sales/advertising agency could sell you anything. Look at the clothing people buy nowdays, people PAY to have their new clothing in a style that looks old and torn up. LOL :D That's silly to me!


This man speaks the TRUTH !

[OttoCobra]

Hooray mo' powa!!!

I'll be running 500hp easy before these hit the street!

[RyanSterling966]

I wonder how the new emission regulations will effect this. Coyote powered S-197 please :)

[M.Dest.B]

the point is S197>New Edge :tongue:

[5litrarag]

LSx w/HCI>Boosted Ford. :dramastarted:


:tongue:

On that note, I think the ecoboost motor will have more modding potential. A simple tune on the factory setup should yield ~400hp, but then start upgrading the piping, intakes, bigger turbos, and it's almost endless. Hopefully the bottom end can take it. I know on the new SHO motor the crank is forged, but nothing has been said about the pistons.


More potential?
No... not so long as Vortech, KB, Procharger and the others are still making product for the V8s.

For small, relatively low cost increases in power, maybe thats the case...

But if you really want to make big power.... there is no substitute.

And since ford is not really saying this is a killer turbo motor or anything, I'm sure the motor is probably good to about 100 hp more than what it makes in stock form. After that you'll be on your own, and rightfully so.
Plus, remember this is being done to save money for the company. So I'm sure they are not trying to give consumers anything that will result in lots of warranty claims. Sure there will be people who will push the envelope, but thats with anything. With this turbo setup its going to be very easy for Ford to limit the output from the factory and VERY easy to see when engine parameters have been diddled with for more power. BMW is doing the same thing with their 135/335 motors.
BTW, What do you think the "ECO" in Ecoboost stands for?

[RyanSterling966]

ewwww eewwwwww pick me pick me!!!! I know this one. Sorry Sean but I gotta agree with Kev on this one. I am sure that some mad scientists will be able to make great mods for the eco. But with that being said and seeing how ford tends to handle things I will be very surprised if this thing will have the bottom end to handle and serious power gains on Stock internals.

[BondoSHO]

ewwww eewwwwww pick me pick me!!!! I know this one. Sorry Sean but I gotta agree with Kev on this one. I am sure that some mad scientists will be able to make great mods for the eco. But with that being said and seeing how ford tends to handle things I will be very surprised if this thing will have the bottom end to handle and serious power gains on Stock internals.

Isn't that what I said originally? :tongue:

[BISKIT]

how so?
The maro has better brakes, IRS, 10 pound weights on the calipers, looks a bazilliob times better, ets,....I guess the mustang doesnt take it.

:band:

LOL.

Do you really think that the mustang will still be running what is under your ass right now chief?

First off, those Brembos you speak don't even come on the car until the 31k mark. Thanks but I can put Brembos on my mustang with money to spare for that price difference.
I especially love how most of the folks on here bringing up the IRS would never even know the difference as there primary goal is to go fast in a straight line in which case NO IRS is better than a solid axle. Sorry.

But in all fairness, I would expect that from a brand new platform and I am sure that Ford has something up their sleave in that regard, but still for the pricetag I could toss the A47/Griggs IRS into the s197 along with the brembos and STILL be at less of a price than the camaro at the same price point.

I am not a ford nutswinger nor a gm hater I just take things at face value and from what I can see Ford is playing their role PERFECTLY.

They bring out the s197 in 2005 thinking they only have a 1-2 year lead on the camaro (the main competition). They have 5 years (and a bodystyle change) to perfect things with the s197 and work out all the bugs. Yes the rear is ugly but the rest of the car is better than it's predecessor.
GM finally releases the camaro only to have Ford ready to go with it's new bodystyle mustang that will maintain the interest and Ford already has a complete lineup of new engines, transmissions and other technologies to counter a car they can now acquire and test against. Not only that but with the wide range of vehicles that the ecoboost, coyote and upcoming 6.2L is going in, outstanding aftermarket support in technology and products is all but locked.

I couldn't care less about the hype or the marketing that either camp wishes to toss my way, as a consumer and as someone that works in this industry I want to see what is the best bang for my buck and I definately don't think Ford has dropped the ball to GM in any way.

[BondoSHO]

A47 IRS :drool:

[5litrarag]

Now we're comparing available aftermarket parts to what comes stock on a new car? sheesh... :no:
What we do to our cars is NOT what most people do. They dont buy a new car to start replacing shit and swapping things out. We are the minority. You have to know that. Anyway....

Mark, 31k is where the SS packages start...

1SS package is the lowest level available with a V8.
2SS is the highest, for now. Until the "ass kicker" comes out. :nod:

So basically what I'm saying is the V8 models get 4 wheel Brembos as STANDARD equipment. Similar to the Brembo option that was available on the G35 coupes and 350Zs a couple years back.

[RyanSterling966]

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/mustang-lounge/59715d1232718283-5-0-coyote-spy-photo-positive-id-needed-50_spy.jpeg

DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLIO

[BISKIT]

Now we're comparing available aftermarket parts to what comes stock on a new car? sheesh... :no:
What we do to our cars is NOT what most people do. They dont buy a new car to start replacing shit and swapping things out. We are the minority. You have to know that. Anyway....

Mark, 31k is where the SS packages start...

1SS package is the lowest level available with a V8.
2SS is the highest, for now. Until the "ass kicker" comes out. :nod:

So basically what I'm saying is the V8 models get 4 wheel Brembos as STANDARD equipment. Similar to the Brembo option that was available on the G35 coupes and 350Zs a couple years back.

I guess that is ALL they get. And when it comes to Brembos, not all brembos are the same. The Camaro brembos are in the same class as the GT-500 brembos (hence the lower price as compared to the ACTUAL Brembo Gran Turismo 4 piston kit which comes with larger piston calipers (both 4 piston) drilled and/or slotted rotors (blank on camaro) and brembo performance pads (as opposed to the ok street pads on the camaro) so me not so impressed.

I was just on the chevy site and "built" myself everything from the basic V6 to the SS2.
Both the V8's you can choose between the 6.2L V8 or the 6.2L V8... wtf?
None of the Camaro's can you get anything in the way of bluetooth, navigation, etc. Whatever Boston accoustics decided you are getting is what you are stuck with and due to the dash built the way it is, you ain't changing it anytime soon with ease either.

For wheels you can pay your dealer FIVE FUCKIN GRAND for the optional 21" wheels. (twentyones? really? cus 20's just aren't cool anymore I guess and god forbid we have wheels on the car that we can get tires for....)

It is actually somewhat shocking how little is available in options for the car. It almost seems like GM was rushing the car into showrooms before they had their option list completely worked out.... :look:

The only reason I bring all this up is because you will HAVE TO turn to the aftermarket if you own a camaro to get anything other than a damn good powerplant, decent trans and for stock, unproven but seemingly solid suspension.

So my comparison is fair.


Sorry dude, but I am not about to jump on the camarolovin bandwagon. I am not going to argue aesthetics as that is completely subjective. There are many things on it I like (I actually like the body styling better than the 2010 mustang) but the objective things are up for debate and in that regard I am not impressed one bit.

[Enorbit3]

:popcorn:

[fdogg96]

5.0 V8 :drool:

[M.Dest.B]

oh very nice thread, will subcribe......

[5litrarag]

So please tell me what car IS getting the Brembo Gran Turismo level eleventy-billion kit as standard equipment.

I'm betting none.
You simply cannot compare aftermarket upgrades with the factory built shit. Its not the same. Most of the time the same companies produce the shit for GM, Ford or whoever it is, but for aftermarket upgrades its clean sheet designs. You know that....

Just like you can't compare a 360 rwhp from the factory with something that was "built" to that level. It wont feel or run the same. Thats the fact.

As for the options, that is how GM is doing things now. Go and do a build on G8 its pretty much the same way. Like 2-3 options which are usually a package of some sort. The 2 6.2L motors are different in that one is for the auto trans car and makes slightly less power. The 6 spd car gets the 426 hp motor. Just like on the G8... the manual trans GXP gets the biggest motor.

[BISKIT]

So please tell me what car IS getting the Brembo Gran Turismo level eleventy-billion kit as standard equipment.

I'm betting none.


As for the options, that is how GM is doing things now. Go and do a build on G8 its pretty much the same way. Like 2-3 options which are usually a package of some sort.

That is not why I brought it up. Everyone is seeing "brembo" and having kittens.

This is NOT the brembo kit that you can buy aftermarket from Brembo for 2400 bucks that is the cat's meow. Both the 2400 dollar and 1400 dollar kits (Gran Turismo and GT-500) are 4 piston calipers, 14 inch rotors, steel braided lines and pads but that is about where the similarity ends. It is like saying that just because they both come from cow, a prime kobe filet is the same as the prime rib at sizzler.

And as far as option "packages" what is on the checkbox list as individual items on the build page is all you have. There are no "packages" for the camaro.

The only thing they have as a "package" is the RS package (V6 only) which consists of:

HID's
"Sinister" looking taillamps
rear spoiler
20" wheels.

big whoop.

I also just LOVE the misleading warranty info.
In "highlights" they tout their 100k/5year warranty but upon further inspection that only covers power/drivetrain.
For everything else you get Ford's old 3 year/36k warranty.

I know at this point I am just splitting hairs, but these are all things that I as a consumer I look at.

[BondoSHO]

Toyota brakes are brembo sourced, doesn't mean they are good. Look at he Genesis coupe track, 4 piston infront, dual in the rear, and the stopping distance is equal to the Camaro v6, and it's 500lbs heavier. OEM brembos are in a different class than aftermarket.

[5litrarag]

Slow down and read man...

I never said the 2400 or the 1400 dollar kit is what would come on the Camaro.
I said Brembo. 4 piston, 4 wheel antilocks as standard at 31k.

Mustang GT coming with that? No.
GT500 coming with them? Damn sure better be for 45k.
The Corvette Z got 'em... ZR1 probably got some variate of the lower package you were talking about. Top of the line aftermarket pieces? Probably not.


Are they Camaro SS brakes better than average brakes? Probably.
World class competition level? Hardly.

Remember they are trying to build a car for everyone. Not the bleeding edge enthusiasts.
Thats what I mean by trying to throw in a "comparison" of aftermarket materials versus the OEM stuff they produce for the car companies.


To say there is no packages, is just like you said, splitting hairs.

They only have a few options. Most other things come along with the car.
BTW, there IS a SS/RS package available above the v6 level.
Its optional on every level except the LS model.

Oh and BTW, I didn't mention this before, but Bluetooth and Nav CAN be had on any Camaro above the LS level.
READ a little deeper.... its there.


You say you aren't biased, but you are so blind you dont even know that you cant see.

Just say you want to hate the car. Its okay. Really, it is. :laugh:

[5litrarag]

One more thing.... you are trying to deride GM for offering a 5 yr/100k warranty on powertrain.

uhhh, what is Ford offering? 5/60k?

last I checked, that was more. :shrug:

[Nicksbluestang]

Brand loyalty freaks. :laugh:

Btw, Whats wrong with 21" wheels? Thats awesome.

[5litrarag]

Brand loyalty freaks. :laugh:

Btw, Whats wrong with 21" wheels? Thats awesome.


If it looks good on the car... absolutely nothing.

[RyanSterling966]

I like cars. I have a couple. I want some more :)

[RedRyder]

I hate all new cars so there!

[Nicksbluestang]

What about your new SI

[BondoSHO]

Slow down and read man...

I never said the 2400 or the 1400 dollar kit is what would come on the Camaro.
I said Brembo. 4 piston, 4 wheel antilocks as standard at 31k.

Mustang GT coming with that? No.
GT500 coming with them? Damn sure better be for 45k.
The Corvette Z got 'em... ZR1 probably got some variate of the lower package you were talking about. Top of the line aftermarket pieces? Probably not.


Are they Camaro SS brakes better than average brakes? Probably.
World class competition level? Hardly.

Remember they are trying to build a car for everyone. Not the bleeding edge enthusiasts.
Thats what I mean by trying to throw in a "comparison" of aftermarket materials versus the OEM stuff they produce for the car companies.


To say there is no packages, is just like you said, splitting hairs.

They only have a few options. Most other things come along with the car.
BTW, there IS a SS/RS package available above the v6 level.
Its optional on every level except the LS model.

Oh and BTW, I didn't mention this before, but Bluetooth and Nav CAN be had on any Camaro above the LS level.
READ a little deeper.... its there.


You say you aren't biased, but you are so blind you dont even know that you cant see.

Just say you want to hate the car. Its okay. Really, it is. :laugh:

ZR1 got some top of the line crap. 15.5" carbon ceramic in the front with 6 piston calipers, and 15" carbon ceramic with 4 piston in the rear. I hear your face melts when you step on them :).

No hate here though, I like the car. For the price, it's pretty darn amazing.

[RedRyder]

What about your new SI

LOL. it's an EX Limited, not an Si. It mostly belongs to the GF. I got her 1994 Honda Accord with VTAK.

[Blanco32v]

yeah, but if ya lose ur job, will GM pay for it for 12 months :look:

what im trying to say is, i wish i bought a new stang before i got shitcanned :laugh:

haha, jp. im sure its not that easy. but if it is then i really do wish i bought a new stang :laugh:

LOL. it's an EX Limited, not an Si. It mostly belongs to the GF. I got her 1994 Honda Accord with VTAK.

how do u like the accord? when shit clears up im thinking of picking one of those up. theyre old but still look nice. :cheers:

[5litrarag]

yeah, but if ya lose ur job, will GM pay for it for 12 months :look:

what im trying to say is, i wish i bought a new stang before i got shitcanned :laugh:

haha, jp. im sure its not that easy. but if it is then i really do wish i bought a new stang :laugh:



how do u like the accord? when shit clears up im thinking of picking one of those up. theyre old but still look nice. :cheers:

No, they only pay for 9 months, up to 500/mo. Not bad in either case....

[RedRyder]

The older accords are excellent for transportation. the gas pedal feels heavy and unresponsive though. and the understeer is TERRIBLE. This is my first FWD car and my first non-V8 though. It does the job it's supposed to and that's all I really ask of it.

[BISKIT]

WOW. So I guess in one fell swoop GM just sold half a million Camaros to us Americans.

The only problem is we will never get the car we paid for.

http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews/idUSN1943363120090519

I don't hate the car Kev, just saying there are certain aspects I like and certain aspects I dispise.

But one thing is for certain, I will DEFINATELY not be buying a car from a company that just robbed John Doe Taxpayer of 15.4 billion dollars and potentially quite a bit more.

So doing that math, 15.4 billion dollars buys nearly half a million of us one of those brand spankin new 6.2L camaro's with the fancy brakes you keep lauding.

Regardless, my main point (that we have turned into a Camaro yeay or nay dickfest) was that with the new engines (Coyote 5.0L and Boss 6.2L) Ford is well on it's way to show the General (again) who is boss in the ponycar market and in that regard, I stand firmly by my statement.


FUCK GM!!!

FUCK CHRYSLER!!!

Both can burn in hell for all I care.

[RedRyder]

I'm in a good mood right now, so I REFUSE to click your link Mark. I know I'll just end up getting pissed off- again.

[BISKIT]

yeah, but if ya lose ur job, will GM pay for it for 12 months :look:

what im trying to say is, i wish i bought a new stang before i got shitcanned :laugh:

haha, jp. im sure its not that easy. but if it is then i really do wish i bought a new stang :laugh:



how do u like the accord? when shit clears up im thinking of picking one of those up. theyre old but still look nice. :cheers:

Correction.

If you lose your job GM will pay for it out of ALL OF OUR MONEY while you still collect unemployment.

I wish I was this shady sometimes. I would have such a successful company if I just had the stomach to rob people blind like this.

[Nicksbluestang]

so much blue oval blindness in here.
The camaro is a great car and i just dont understand how people can hate on it with out even having been able to drive/own one or even take a ride on it for someone to criticize on it.

Why cant some people just admit that chebby has a good car out in the lots and give some props to it instead of putting it down and believing that the mustang was sent to eart by God.

[RedRyder]

The fox was sent to earth by God to prevent fornication and premarital sex.
1. It doesn't attract the sluts.
2. Most owners would rather wrench on it than have sex.

[Enorbit3]

When u guys say that GM will pay for it, does that mean they will add on another x amount to your contract. Like if u r outta work for 6 months do they cover it but then add those 6 months to the end of your term?

[Nicksbluestang]

The fox was sent to earth by God to prevent fornication and premarital sex.
1. It doesn't attract the sluts.
2. Most owners would rather wrench on it than have sex.

but did god send the ugly ass notch or the prettiful hatch to earth.

[BondoSHO]

We are going to be paying on Obama's trillion + for a long time. What's another 15.4 biilion?

[5litrarag]

When u guys say that GM will pay for it, does that mean they will add on another x amount to your contract. Like if u r outta work for 6 months do they cover it but then add those 6 months to the end of your term?

They will make the payment for up to 9 months up to a maximum of 500 bucks per month.
No putting it on the back of the loan, or anything tricky. But you probably will get a 1099 at the end of the year. Not a big deal though....

[BISKIT]

so much blue oval blindness in here.
The camaro is a great car and i just dont understand how people can hate on it with out even having been able to drive/own one or even take a ride on it for someone to criticize on it.

Why cant some people just admit that chebby has a good car out in the lots and give some props to it instead of putting it down and believing that the mustang was sent to eart by God.

Since I am the only one in this thread that seems to not think that the Camaro is gods gift I will assume that this was meant for me.

I will also assume that I am the only one here that has not only see the car multilple times but has also driven one (V6 and V8)

Nice car. Nasty engine (V8), decent suspension and smooth trans.

That is it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Would I pay 31k+ for a stripped down V8 version just because amongst other things it says brembo on the calipers?

Never.

Other than the fact that in light of recent events I will NEVER buy a product from such a crooked company I also don't care at all for the interior. It is poorly laid out and the materials (especially compared to the 2010) are sub par and outdated.
...

You know what. I am not even going to go on. No point. I have already been branded a blue oval fanatic and a chebby hater. I couldn't care less. This thread will last longer than the company that makes it so there is little to discuss.

Oh and Sean, if you really feel the need to politicize this thread, let me know when Obama reaches 1/5 the deficit that Bush did and then we will talk. There are many things we can discuss but only as long as it is well thought out and makes more sense than something that comes from obvious hatred for the current admin and nothing else.

[RedRyder]

I don't like it when threads get rrobello.T

[BondoSHO]

Since I am the only one in this thread that seems to not think that the Camaro is gods gift I will assume that this was meant for me.

I will also assume that I am the only one here that has not only see the car multilple times but has also driven one (V6 and V8)

Nice car. Nasty engine (V8), decent suspension and smooth trans.

That is it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Would I pay 31k+ for a stripped down V8 version just because amongst other things it says brembo on the calipers?

Never.

Other than the fact that in light of recent events I will NEVER buy a product from such a crooked company I also don't care at all for the interior. It is poorly laid out and the materials (especially compared to the 2010) are sub par and outdated.
...

You know what. I am not even going to go on. No point. I have already been branded a blue oval fanatic and a chebby hater. I couldn't care less. This thread will last longer than the company that makes it so there is little to discuss.

Oh and Sean, if you really feel the need to politicize this thread, let me know when Obama reaches 1/5 the deficit that Bush did and then we will talk. There are many things we can discuss but only as long as it is well thought out and makes more sense than something that comes from obvious hatred for the current admin and nothing else.

No, I said the same thing about Bush's spree. Our children's children's children are going to be paying for the Bush mistake. But adding a trillion onto that, 15.4 billion seems like pennies. That's all :).

[LXS]

: palomitas:

[BondoSHO]

:popcorn:

Fix.T.

[LXS]

Fix.T.



:aaron: